"Just a thought...does the community need to be upset if the church doors close. What if their needs are still being met by the people who were meeting their needs...the church doors were not what was important to them. "
And, I would have to agree with this sentiment. However, the questions that this begs are 1) Are the needs being met through the people in the church? and 2) If we are, then why do we need the church? Now, I think the answer to #2 is an obvious answer. Ben mentioned some of the reasons in his response, but question #1 is a little more difficult to decipher. First, we must begin to understand what the church is. Is the church the building that we associate ourselves with? Is the church the body of believers that we associate ourselves with? Or, is it the Body of Christ? If we try and answer Rob's question with any of these questions then we are in a position of defending those postions. If I say that the church is the building down on Main St. then what impact is that building having on the community? If I say that the church is the body of believer's who meet together at the building on Main St. then what impact is that group having on the community? If the church is the Body of Christ in general, then what impact is the Body of Christ having in the community? Next, the delimma. We, I believe, are called first of all to The Body of Christ throughout the world. As a part of that body, we are are typically called to a local body of belivers, who in turn meet together, usually in a building and call themselves a church. It's the Church Universal and the local church. So, the question breaks down into three levels of "Your Church". If "Your Church" were to close down, what impact would it have on your community? If the church building truly has a representation of the Body of Believers and thus the Body of Christ, then if it were to close it's doors, I think there should be an outcry. Not that the building is all that important, but simply because it should be an extention of the other two. It's really a catch-22. If the church were to close it's doors, that could likely mean that the people are not meeting the needs. If the people are not meeting the needs then the doors could possibly close. The difference, however, is that most likely the church (building) would not close it's doors because those who are attending it will support it. They do this because they typically want to keep it open so that they can come and they can do that even if they don't meet anybody else's needs in the community. I know that I may have gotten a little deep here but, in my mind, the question still stands. If your church were to close it's doors would those outside of those attending be upset? I asked my pastor this question and he said about our church "No, I don't think there's a church in town that people would be upset about closing down." He backed down and recanted a little bit, but still felt pretty strong about his statement. I said I agreed. How sad............ :(
4 comments:
I think it may be safe to say that if not a majority, at least half of the Church (worldwide) doesn't connect a building with the word church...because they haven't, don't, and won't buy one. In fact, many believe it to be a weakness. You remember reading Heavenly Man and the comments he made. George Barna, considered by many to be the leading voice for church dynamics, has a book called "Revolution". He eludes to the loss of the building being the future hope of the American church. My mentors in Bend, who travel the country and equip pastors, are saying the same things. "The buildings are on their way out, the house gatherings are on their way in." Even crazier, Sandy and I are about to visit a church that purposefully has no building. They are a movement out here called Third Day Churches and it's slowly catching on. We're talking years and decades, not weeks and months.
Anywho, not to get too far off subject, but from the fruit I've already seen first and and abroad, is it all that bad of news to see the closing of churches. Afterall, most closed doors mean an end to a bunch of lukewarmedness. hmmmmmmm.
OK, I am on a break from a conference right now and I have come away from todays session deciding I am no longer going to allow being haunted by this question of the doors closing of a church. I am writing quickly and without having mulled all this over...so I may have to come back and reword this...but I have to get it out! I guess I should be doing this on my blog, but for whatever reason, I tied these teachings to the questions going on here! One state ment made today that hit me was, "We tend to pray for power and things...not to encounter the beauty of the Lord" Ps. 27:4
One thing I have desired of the LORD...that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in His temple.
Mike Bickle talked about the story in Mt. 25:1-8 about the foolish virgins who were not ready for the Bridegroom. The oil represents intimacy with God...the foolish ones were not intimate with God when Christ returned so they were not ready for the warfare that was to go on. They were pursuing ministry but not intimacy.
OUCH! I remember a time I complained to God about why I had so much passion for so many aspects of the ministry...I didn't know where to devote my passion. It should have been directed at Him and everything else would have fallen in place the right way. I remember being the Missionary President, which in turn put me on the church board and sunday school board. I was the Missions educator for the children's department, so I was on the children's board. I was on the teen council and sang in the choir! WOW! WHAT A CHURCH THAT GAVE ME SO MUCH OPPORTUNITY! Hmm...so how in the world did I find time to be intimate with God...to be a wife...to be a mom?
I DIDN'T! I would have been without my oil had HE come back then!
I am going to just copy stuff from my notes.
"The Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God...we have received ...the Spirit...that we might know(experience) the things that have been freely given to us by God. I Cor.2:10-12)
We can lose perspective by becoming focused more on our secondary blessings(circumstances & ministry). If we lose the 'oil of intimacy' then our heart gets wounded and burned out. Some of our wounds and disappointments are a sightpost that our secondary rewards have become first place in our heart. Some of our pain that results is designed to let us know that our heart must return back to the place where our focus is again on Jesus as our primary reward.
When Jesus is our primary reward, there is no guarantee that we will live pain free. However, when our spirit is invigorated by encoutering Jesus, our disappointments are much more manageable in the Grace of God because we see things differently. I have prayed, 'Lord shock me now, not at the Judgement Seat. Wake me up, even if You use the pain of disappointments.'
Isa 62:4 teaches that we are to understand God's delight in us before we are to be effective in ministry (vs. 6-7)"
So what does all this have to do with the question at hand? Well if a "church" is not directing it's people to really KNOW God, to really understand how much HE loves us... and how much we should be in love with HIM...and if the people are not using the power of prayer to make a difference in their community...then those doors do not deserve to be open in the name of "church"
So the words of that last paragraph are my words...not something said today!!! Sorry this was so long and sorry I used your blog, Scott, to spill it out!
Ok...surely this is my last comment on this question....I was a little startled (in that I applied it to the question of churches closing down)when I heard a verse read this morning at the conference. I will not quote it here...look it up. Malachi 1:10
Actually...all of Malachi is convicting reading...but with a victorious promise at the end! The Message expresses it in a very interesting way.
It has been a long time since I've talked to you Scott! Thanks to Joyce, who has been in contact with my mom, I've discovered your blog and others from people from St. Pauls. Hope you don't mind if I crash this discussion with some of my thoughts:
A common vision among the hispanic pastors my father knows in the US is making the church an INTEGRAL part of the community. These pastors see needs in the community and use the church building (even buying new buildings if needed) to meet those needs. One pastor in Tampa, Florida bought a building in a run-down, crime infested part of the city, with a vision that God could use the physical building to change that neighborhood. Most of the "shady" places around the church have now closed, and that neighborhood is now different, because of the prayers of the members of the church, and because of the church itself.
So, that is the goal, or at least it should be the goal for our traditional churches. Whether or not it is happening or not I think depends on the leaders. Do they have a vision, or more importantly, have they asked God for the direction they should take to reach their communities?
Regarding a more organic church, with meetings at homes and small gatherings, these can also provide a good model. These gatherings can be wonderful tools to reach new people, and I know they have been used in South America. But, I don't think the original question specifies a church building... what if one of these cell groups stopped meeting. The question still applies. Will those small groups do enough, pray enough, be involved in the community enough so that they will be missed if they stop meeting?
Enough for now maybe? I've started a blog of my own, so I invite you Scott and any others to visit it if you want an update on my life right now. God bless you and Dawn, and Reagan and Connor!
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